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Making Water Soluble Cannabis Edibles at Home

Discussion in 'Weed Edibles' started by Ringodog, Nov 17, 2020.

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  1. #1 Ringodog, Nov 17, 2020
    Anyone else working on this? I have had some limited success thus far with the fermentation process similar to the one currently being used by Traite Biosciences.

    I ordered some Maltodextrin to try that method.

    I'm not big on nano emulsion because of the lack of info about nano particles and the blood brain barrier. And, the cost of high speed shear mixers is crazy. Plus, even if you emulsify it, it is still fat based and has all the problems associated with fat based edibles.

    I am putting together another test on fermentation.

    I currently have 4 tests running using Badkittysmiles' method using citric acid.

    Water soluble edibles are a huge breakthrough in edibles. You can research exactly why but in short, water soluble carbohydrates are processed in the mouth, stomach and small intestine. Fat based edibles like butter, oil, etc must make their way to the large intestine before being processed. What that means is there's no more waiting 2 or 3 hours to get off. Onset of water based edibles in usually under 15 minutes and the length of time you are high is cut in half or third. to just a few hours. All around, a much better method of delivery than fat based edibles.

    Plus, it is tasteless and odorless so you can drop it in your favorite drink and not taste the cannabis at all. I gag at the taste of cannabis. I often make caps but, again, anything fat based in unpredictable.

    Just wanted to post and see if anyone else was into this. I actually discovered this accidentally when I made some hard cider and used some old cannabis caramels as the fermenting sugar. The caramels COMPLETELY disappeared into the cider and there was NO separation. Then, I read an article about Traite doing the same thing so I am going to give it another shot with the little additional info I have absorbed recently.

    I also make my own home brew beer so once I get this system down, I'll be making true cannabis based beer. Yummy.

    Thanks and Peace.
     
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  2. #2 bkarnaze, Nov 17, 2020
    Very interesting.
    Keep us posted.
    Those of us who use edibles for sleep might be able to combine this method with oil based methods to get more sleep.
     
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  3. #3 BrassNwood, Nov 17, 2020
    To clarify.
    Most all cooking oil based edibles including butter take about 2 hours to reach full throttle.
    Coconut oil is the sole exception as it doesn't need any bile or 45 minutes in your stomach to break down before being passed to the Liver where the Magic happens.
    45 minutes for a Coconut oil based infusion to really be whupping your ass.
    My Hash-Coconut oil-Lecithin Capsules are always very predictable.
    Most of us WANT our edible cannabis to take a pass through the liver as that is where the Delta-9-THC gets converted into it's much stronger and far more long lasting version 11-Hydroxy-THC.
    5x stronger and 10x longer lasting you get so much more bang for your money with a true Liver processed edible.
    Only your Liver can do this conversion. Everything else in the body will be processed as short lived Delta-9-THC. Lungs, Stomach, Skin, Intestines, Oral tissues, All absorb as Delta-9.

    Delta-9-THC = 45 minutes duration.
    11-Hydroxy-THC = 8 hours duration.

    While I use the Hash-Coconut oil capsules for the majority of my pain control, I keep Kief-Hash to toke and 190 proof Tincture for that RIGHT NOW pain relief as both have nearly instant effects. I'd be curious to see how this stacks up against Tincture and Smoking for that got to have it this minute times.
    Many of the friends and family I gift medicine to can't tolerate or have other objections to the straight 190 proof under the tongue and-or don't smoke-vape so a fast alternate Delta-9 method has appeal.

    BNW
     
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  4. #4 BrassNwood, Nov 17, 2020
    The Summer Harvest is cured and can be smashed into Kief so I'll have a couple of hundred grams of high grade Kief Concentrate to play with. It's time I got to work making Capsules again and I'll have to re-read Kats section of her Citrus extraction.

    BNW
     
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  5. #5 PsychedelicSam, Nov 17, 2020
    I use the maltodextrin to make a powder and I really like it. It's not technically nano but the starch encapsulation gives it a quick onset of a sugar instead of the delayed you would normally get from the oil. As I said, I really like it and it's very convenient.

    I saw this to late tonight for a discussion but I shall return. Oh, I'm getting ready to check out the citric acid extraction. Haven't done it yet because I don't know what I want to make with it yet. I don't want to waste it if it's any good. :)
     
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  6. #6 Ringodog, Nov 17, 2020
    Thanks for the input, gang.

    @BrassNwood .. thanks for that info. I am still learning about 11-hydroxy.

    I am not medicating with cannabis. I am an old stoner and I smoke pot. LMAO

    So, the fast onset and the short term is what I'm looking for. If I start to come down and I'm not ready yet, I'll drink another canna-drink, just like smoking another joint. LOL However, I was not aware that the 11 vs 9 was the result of delivery. Very cool. Thanks for that knowledge. Cannabis is my hobby so I am always wanting to learn and try something new. This is why I love forums. Such a great opportunity to learn.

    My maltodextrin will be here tomorrow so we'll try that.

    Thanks again to all who input.
     
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  7. #7 PsychedelicSam, Nov 17, 2020
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  8. #8 Ringodog, Nov 17, 2020
    Awesome, thanks. My maltodextrin will be here tomorrow so I'll be trying this, for sure.
    Thanks again.
     
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  9. #9 Ringodog, Nov 18, 2020
    Hey, @PsychedelicSam , can I ask where you got the 4:5 ratio for oil to maltodextrin? I saw 5 or 6 examples and the ratios varied but most were 1:3.
    I thought this was pretty funny.......I found this patent on "concentrated cannabis oil to be stable, emulsifiable and flavorless for use in hot beverages" and look who the patent holder is...... Ed Rosenthal. LOL
    WO2016135621A1 - Method for conducing concentrated cannabis oil to be stable, emulsifiable and flavorless for use in hot beverages and resulting powderized cannabis oil - Google Patents
     
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  10. #10 PsychedelicSam, Nov 18, 2020
    Yeah, I saw that patent when I was researching and one of the things that led a little credence to it for me.

    I got that ratio from Modernist Pantry. I was watching the videos they have for the powder and they used 50g of oil to be powdered and 40g of tapioca maltodextrin. The 40g of starch is quite a lot, very fluffy. 50 grams of an oil isn't going to be much comparatively. I watched a couple other videos and found that same volume and ratio so I adopted it on a smaller scale. I didn't want to make more than a few doses so I reduced it down to the 5:4 instead of 50/40 with 10g of oil and eight of the maltodextrin and you saw how much that makes. 1:3 may be by volume instead of weight. Sounds about right. You'll see when you get it. Fluffy.

    I have seen different ratios used in videos by other independent users with many using volume instead of weight. Modernist Pantry emphasizes weight for their product so that's what I do instead of trying to eyeball volume for accuracy. And with weight I can calculate my doses better. :)
     
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  11. #11 Ringodog, Nov 18, 2020
    Bingo, I think you hit the nail on the head. The other recipes were using volume, not weight. Sorry about that.
    I am going to check volume vs weight and see if they come to a match.

    Unfortunately, Amazon fucked up and sent the wrong package, today. So, the maltodextrin won't be here until tomorrow.

    Thanks again for straightening me out on that. Really looking forward to doing this.

    Today, I am going to use the fermenting method.I'll take a few pics and post them later on.

    Thanks again, Sam
     
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  12. #12 PsychedelicSam, Nov 19, 2020
    This is the part of that extraction that really interests me. From BKS'

    "Citric Acid Extraction: The Easiest and Most Discreet Extraction"


    Pre-decarbing, is not necessary.. and here's why :)

    Citric like any acid, functions when in contact with organic substances in its concentrated form, by undergoing a process of oxidization, or 'redox'. This is otherwise know as a kind of low grade combustion, or more correctly, burning and combusting material is a kind of redox. It causes a chemical reaction and change in the material it comes into contact with, releasing the carbon elements, and water vapor, in other words, decarboxylating the material.

    In concentrations high enough, it can be mixed with water, and still actually draw the moisture out from the material it comes into contact with, into the solution, where it will rapidly evaporate along with the rest of the water content. During this process it almost ruthlessly breaks down the glandular material into a very fine crystalline paste, and with gentle heat (or a few days in a sealed container) the fragments, barely holding their shape together, will melt in your mouth.

    Here's that guide. It can be hard to find. BadKats CannaPharm: Medical Grade Oil, Cannabis Capsules, UV GLOWING Hash Candy, Canna Bombs more
     
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  13. #13 Ringodog, Nov 19, 2020
    The citric acid decarb makes sense. Makes you wonder about certain things. Like, how about a slushi with cannabis leaves and orange juice. I wonder if the orange juice would contribute to decarb and convert the leaves? You often read about people who put undecarbed pot leaves in drinks and get high from them.Looking back, I wonder if those drinks had citrus juice of some kind.

    Or, I wonder if the Limonene (is that the terp that tastes like orange?) contributes to the natural decarboxilation of pot?

    For someone like myself to whom pot is more of a hobby than anything, all this new info is awesome. IMO, it's the best side effect of legalization.
     
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  14. #14 Ringodog, Nov 19, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2020
    OK.... experiment 2.02 on fermenting cannabis to make it water soluble. (Fermentation is the general method that Traite Biosciences is using to make their water soluble, tasteless cannabis additive). I started with cannabis caramels that I made for my friends. I make caramels from pressed rosin pucks and ABV so there is no way to tell the exact potency. From the feedback I get from my friends when comparing against dispensary 10mg gummies, they all agree my caramels are way stronger 1 for 1. So, I am thinking maybe 20 to 25mg each. My guitar player ate 4 and he said it "weaponized" him. LOL I have tolerance issues so I would have to eat about 25 to 30 of these and I can't take sweets and I hate the taste (although everyone else says they can barely taste the cannabis). So, I just make them for friends. I use straight rosin when I make edibles for myself.

    OK, one more thing about the caramels. I use a standard recipe using canna-oil, brown sugar, light corn syrup and sweetened condensed milk (and a dash of salt and vanilla). So, caramels are mostly just sugar. Also, I heat my caramels to 250F for almost "hard ball" consistency. But for the next experiment, I will only go to about 180 to make a caramel sauce that will melt into the water better. These caramels dissolved a little while stirring but they didn't dissolve completely.. Thus, I could not take a specific gravity reading so I'll never know the exact alcohol content. But, this experiment isn't about alcohol, it's about water soluble cannabis so, I'm not concerned about it.

    1.jpg
    OK, so now, everything goes into the fermenter. I won't go into detail about fermenting but, I heated the water to 170F to pasteurize it. I'm not sure if you need to pasteurize water but I did it anyway. Pasteurization kills wild yeast that exist as part of nature in the environment. And, the type of yeast means everything in wine making and brewing so you want to kill of any wild yeast and use your own specific yeast. I used standard DADY (Distillers Active Dry Yeast) and some yeast nutrients for a boost. Standard cheap fermenters are on Amazon and eBay and a cheap one like this is probably under 20 bux with the air lock and all. Last experiment, I used store bought apple juice but for this experiment, I didn't want the additional variables, so I used water.

    2.jpg

    I used about 3 quarts of water and 1 cup of caramels. This was 50 pieces. So, I'll have some general idea of dose. Last time, I just tossed the caramels in and let them melt. This time, stirred them up a little and tried to melt them as much as possible. In the previous experiment, the caramels dissolved 100% during fermentation. So, I mixed it up as best I could and added the yeast and yeast nutes and stirred up up real well..

    3.jpg

    That was all last night. Already, this morning, fermentation has begun and the air lock is bubbling nicely. As you can see, there is a nice krausan (the foaming head) forming. This is good. Also, the remaining caramels that didn;t melt seem to have floated to the top and the yeast are actively eating them up. Yummy.

    4.jpg

    5.jpg

    This will sit for 2 weeks. Then, we will open it up and run some tests. See you in 2. :)
     
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  15. #15 Ringodog, Nov 20, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2020
    Maltodextrin experiment 1.01

    First off, these are just my findings, nothing more. If I post something incorrect, please feel free to correct me. You can't offend me, I've been married for 42 years.

    Coconut oil: 1 tsp = 4.67 grams
    Maltodextrin powder: 1 TBSP = 6.3 grams


    Ed Rosenthal owns a patent(s) on using maltodextrin to make cannabis oil water soluble. WO2016135621A1 - Method for conducing concentrated cannabis oil to be stable, emulsifiable and flavorless for use in hot beverages and resulting powderized cannabis oil - Google Patents

    Reference says, "
    3. The method of claim 1 wherein the ratio of the starch powder to the cannabis oil, by weight, is at least three grams of starch powder to every one-eighth of a gram of cannabis oil.
    4. The method of claim 1 wherein the ratio of the starch powder to the cannabis oil, by weight, is between three grams of starch powder for every one-eighth of a gram to one-half of a gram of cannabis oil."

    Feel free to check my math but this is how I see that breaking down... I am using 1 gram samples of rosin, mixed with 1 tsp (4.67 grams) of coconut oil. My oil sample is now about 5.6 grams.

    Ed's claim 3 would put the equation at 24 grams (About 4 TBSP of maltodextrin per gram of oil). For my 5.6 gram sample, that's 22 TBSP or 1 1/3 cups.

    Ed's claim 4 (using 1/2 gram) put the equation at 6 grams (About 1 TBSP of maltodextrin per gram of oil) For my 5.6 gram sample, that's 6 TBSP.

    Sam's video said 5:4 by weight and rxleaf (Cannabis Oil Powder For Edibles That Kick At 15 Minutes) says 1/4 cup oil to 3/4 cup maltodextrin. Which, according to my defined variables for maltodextrin and coconut oil comes out to 1:1 by weight. Pretty close to Sam.

    I'll get some shots and post some results later.

    Please feel free to comment or correct.

    Thanks
     
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  16. #16 PsychedelicSam, Nov 20, 2020
    The maltodextrin doesn't do anything to the taste except make it slightly sweeter and not much of that. You get the flavor of the oil that you're using and there is still a slight cannabis flavor but not the bitter one and that will depend on the concentration. The first couple of times I used some shatter and coconut oil and the powder had a definite coconut flavor and aroma. The last one I used coconut oil and cocoa butter and both of those are apparent in the taste. The next one I want to use butter and garlic so that I can use it on baked potatoes or other main course foods.

    How are you proceeding with the citric acid? You have four of them? In what form? Did you heat any or let them sit for a few days or use acid or alcohol. I'm trying to figure out what the purpose is of letting it sit for days myself. Not sure if it enhances decarb but I'm pretty sure it has nothing to do with the extraction. That's achieved by the acid or alcohol. 882.gif
     
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  17. #17 Ringodog, Nov 20, 2020
    The 4 citric acid test I have going are:
    1. Citric acid and vinegar with ground flower
    2. Citric acid and vinegar with dry sift
    3, Citric acid and vinegar with rosin
    4. Citric acid and water with rosin.
    They should be ready to start testing today.
    I did use an oven for 2 of them but I just put them in for about 10 minutes as the oven was cooling down from the 240F decarb temp from the rosin. So, yes and no to the oven question. :)
    Unfortunately, my tolerance issues don't allow me to do much testing. At 350ml to get the same "comfortably numb" feeling that most people get from a 10mg gummie, I use others for testing. LOL
    I had 4 or 5 friends who used to come to our gigs every week (I'm in a band) and I would always give them my edibles for testing. However, all our gigs got cancelled back in March. I had a bunch of caramels and carts all ready for our St Patrick's Day gig and they cancelled the day of. That totally sucked. I miss playing out. Maybe next year. LOL

    Anyway, I'll report whatever results I get from the citric acid as soon as I can. Since I don't have friends for testing, I do have some old TLC plates. I could test them that way.

    Also, I ran a bunch of test on the maltodextrin last night. I must say, I'm a little disappointed. I'll post some pics and a summary later today.

    Peace
     
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  18. #18 Ringodog, Nov 20, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2020
    Maltodextrin 1.01: The good news about this method is that is not require any special tools or ability. Great for DIY.

    1.jpg

    I decarbed a gram of rosin (240F for 40 min) and mixed 1 tsp (4.6 grams) of coconut oil with it. Using Ed's claim of 3g malt per 1/2 gram oil. I measured out 6 TBSP of maltodextrin. It seemed like way too much so I first put about 3 TBSP in the bowl. I was very surprised how the oil seemed to seek out the powder to join with it. Since it was mixing so well, I added the remaining maltodextrin.

    2.jpg

    3.jpg
    After mixing, I tried to sift through an ultra fine sifter and it was an absolute no go. The maltodextrin seemed a little 'oily' and instantly clogged the screen. So, I went with a larger sifter and it was still a long haul but I got it through.

    4.jpg

    I mixed a tsp with 1 cup of water for a test. Here is where I was disappointed. The mix seemed to dissolve very well at first. A little whisking and it seemed to have all dissolved. I was pretty happy until I let it set for about an hour. You can see the oil slick on top and a profile view shows the thin layer of oil on top. It seems that after the maltodextrin dissolved, it released the oil. Is that what happened? Anyway, the pics don't lie.

    5.jpg

    6.jpg

    You can see the film left on the glass from stirring, pouring, etc.

    7.jpg

    And, it didn't mix for shit with my beer.

    8.jpg

    Pretty much a failed test for my slate. Granted, this was the MINIMUM claim in Ed's patent. To reach the max claim, I would mix about 1 1/3 cups of maltodextrin with this same amount of oil. However, I am not prepared to eat over a cup of maltodextrin LOL So, if it doesn't work in high dose, it's simply not for me. I'll be running more test and I'll update as new info comes in.

    I did mix a couple teaspoons with my coffee this morning. As before, it blended great at first but very soon thereafter came the oil slick to the surface. So, my first sip of coffee was like an abundant application of lip gloss. LOL

    Just for shits and giggles, I will try a small sample with the maximum malt in Ed's claims. I'm also going to try Malted Barley. I have a little from my home brew stuff. I was reading a little and they are similar so I'll give it a shot. Wold be awesome to make a cannabis malt and use that to make beer. If my fermenting tests come out good, I'll make a batch of beer with cannabis malt and see if the oil blends.
     
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  19. #19 PsychedelicSam, Nov 20, 2020
    The powder isn't really meant to be used in a liquid other than something like a smoothie or shake. Other than a few preliminary tests in coffee and cold drinks I use it as a topping or a mix-in for yogurt or such stuff. I dissolve a gram of shatter into 10g of coconut oil and 8g of maltodextrin and it's not oily at all. It goes through the sifter pretty well for a nice fluffy powder. A tablespoon is about 75mg. It works great in soup and hot chocolate, too, because the oil slick isn't noticeable in those.

    You would need to use an emulsifier more than likely to get the powder to completely dissipate, something like lecithin. I would like to try straight up rso with no carrier oil and use lecithin but I can't afford to waste the rso if it doesn't work. I suppose it could still be used for something, though. That would take a gram of rso and the equivalent of liquid lecithin and add 1.6g of maltodextrin. RSO is an oil, especially when liquid lecithin is added so another oil wouldn't be necessary although you may want to since lecithin tastes like crap. :)
     
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  20. #20 Ringodog, Nov 20, 2020
    They say great minds think alike. I already have the lecithin out. Was planning to eliminate the oil and use lecithin instead (I generally use the liquid sunflower) I have always been big on lecithin in edibles. More so for the increase in bioavailability (because of my tolerance and bioavailability issues) than for emulsifying. My avatar at another site is...

    lecithinsmall.jpg

    LOL

    I'll definitely let you know how it turns out. You have been a great help. Thank you very much.

    As for it not mixing with water but working well in many other drinks and deliveries... I am so very cool with that. Cannabis is my hobby. So, I will pursue a 100% water soluble just for the sake of learning. I'll use your guidelines above for the next test :)

    I mixed yesterday's test with my coffee today and I am not 100% sure but I think it actually worked. It is difficult to say as I have my normal 5 or 6 joints with my morning coffee and then it's pretty much chain smoking/vaping until bedtime. Tomorrow, I will forgo the usual ritual of chain smoking and lend a chance to the maltodextrin alone. I certainly felt little 'boosts' during the day as I eat more and more of the maltodextrin from yesterday. More of a body rush than a head rush.

    In any event, this is all so very totally cool for me. Like I said, cannabis is my hobby and all this new info is awesome.

    I have a question........

    I have eaten enough edibles in the past to have me crawling on the floor, rapid heart, panic, sweat, the entire game so I know what a bad edible trip is (albeit, I live for that buzz but most call it a 'bad' trip. LOL)

    Anyway... because the method of delivery for the carbs is very similar to smoking, inhaling, whatever (vs the fat delivery method that most oil/fat based edibles use), is it possible to 'overdose' on these water/carb based edibles. Or, would it be like trying to smoke enough to overdose = sore throat. LOL

    I don't know if this is the proper way to ask but can you OD on Delta 9 like you can on 11 Hydroxy? Again, please correct me if that is asked incorrectly. And, excuse the word, 'overdose'. I mean it to be enough to cause a 'bad' trip (which is different for everyone). Even a noob could eat as much as desired and not have to worry???? Not sure if anyone knows that answer yet. Just curious.

    Anyway, I am off to collect marigold seeds. later.

    Peace and thanks again.
     
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